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NOT AN EPISODE
- Checklist Superman
- Shorts
- Citizenship
- Bendis to retcon Superman origin
- Kryptonian character in Exodus template
- Moses and Jesus characteristics
- Jobs and travel expanding your views
- Discussing “I Don’t Have to Save You” in JL.
- Super speed feats and consistency in JL.
Web: ManOfSteelAnswers.com
Twitter: @mosanswers
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So much content! I’m eager to listen to all you have just posted Doc, its good to hear from you again after so long.
Haha, my intention is that you overdose, get sick of my voice, and call for my retirement. 😉
Hi Doc great to hear from you again; i’ve wanted ask you if would you please make an episode about Superman’s influence on masses which can be comparable to a divine figure? You’re definetly better with words so i’ve had debates with people who say that if Clark was more vocal and give speeches, interviews people would trust him faster. I’ve normally debunked this by stating real life historical events, how unreliable can be the words of powerfull figures can be, The Prime Directive, and how his death is the only conclussion to be the proof of his benevolence but i think you can definetly explain it better than me. Excuse me if i’m bothering i’ve been your fan for a long time. Keep doing the good work.
Great minds think alike! I actually cut this, but at some point I say something like,
“People say if Superman just spoke more he’d be trusted, but whether you consider him mosaic or messianic, in either case the people at large didn’t! Moses took them out of Egypt, parted the Red Sea, and went to commune with God on the mountaintop… but despite miracle after miracle seen with their own eyes, they lost faith, doubted, and made a golden calf. If you think it’s a matter of words, Jesus preached and taught his entire ministry, but when it came to who the crowd wanted crucified they choose him. It doesn’t matter if you don’t believe these stories, they’re still a part of the fabric of our culture and mythology thousands of years later and they attest to the fact we don’t hear or trust who we should EVEN when they speak to their utmost. If you accept the Bible as the word of God that means a benevolent power has written a 800,000 tome to you to trust Him but many times you still won’t. No amount of words is going to create the trust fairytale Superman seems to get from the public at large.”
It was too preachy so I removed it, but you get the gist. Words are cheap. Just because someone writes an autobiography doesn’t make them trustworthy.
I also used the “words are cheap” argument but i used a little bit of my own understanding. The spiritual, emotional and mental significance that would have Superman could bend or even break the concept, understanding and their very identity. That’s just too much influence for a farmboy from Kansas. What would you think are the worst case scenarios for him or mankind if he tries to push his luck insisting on the adaptation and asimilation of the new established reality? Thanks for the reply 🙂
Hey Doc. Longtime fan and listener here.
I’m responding to the ‘I don’t have to save you’ last bit of the brief.
A little while ago I watched and live-blogged Winter Soldier. I didn’t like the movie. Thought the moral complexities it had were all conveniently swept away by the reveal that SHIELD was Hydra all along. But that’s not the takeaway I got from that. I posted something about all the henchmen Cap possibly killed (and definitely injured) with his shield and how when the MCU does it, it’s okay, but when Zack Snyder does it, it’s the end of the world. Someone with responded with something like: Cap is a soldier fighting bad guys, he gets a pass. I said: well, Clark is not a soldier but he’s fighting bad guys. It was never a problem before, but suddenly everyone’s worried about Clark hurting bad guys? They said it’s not the same, Clark is not like Cap and not even like Diana.
I asked them: why is there a difference? Why is Cap and Diana killing bad guys different from Clark killing bad guys? The response: Supes is not like that. Mine: uh, actually, Clark has killed before, in the Donner movie too. They then responded by saying something I see often: well, Clark just doesn’t do that. He’s not supposed to do that.
And that’s the crux of it, I think, mixed with how Clark is presented across the mainstream. People hold Clark to a higher moral standard than any other superhero, even higher than his own canon, and there are certain movies and versions where if that’s the only thing you see, you get a limited view of his complex mythology and character. It baffles me that people don’t realize Clark just… let’s Zod and his team die in S2. But it’s presented as the morally right after effect like most CBMs. Of course Zod would fall to his death, he deserves it. There’s no humanization. There’s no moral complexity. Batman is more defined by his moral complexity in the mainstream, so it’s not difficult to take in that he also lets Ras die at the end of Batman Begins.
I still remember sitting in the theaters watching MOS and being shocked that Clark broke Zod’s neck. I had to suddenly rethink what I knew about Superman. And I thought about it a lot, thought about the whole movie (now going on 5 years lol), and I remember deciding that well, if it was a choice between that family and Zod… well, is there a choice even? Isn’t that a common scenario rarely seen in CBMs: will you kill one person to save a million? And what’s great about that question is that yeah, there is a choice. The other choice is letting the family die. The other choice is letting Earth die. Other stuff is also in question, like Zod’s purpose, his anguish, his passion. These are all things that humanized Zod, that made his side clear and understandable. It made me uncomfortable because I sympathized, bc I understood him. I had to suddenly accept that tons of people were dying during the fight, but it made sense. These are unstoppable alien bodies. And I had to rethink that too. How I thought about Clark’s powers. How strong he was, how much he holds back, how important it was that the Kents raised him not just as an idea. But in the minute details. How his powers were honed with chores and how easily he could get in trouble if he interfered, how much it would change everything. MOS and BVS made me think a lot. Made me think about Lex and Zod and how they came to be. Made me even acknowledge that Lois was severely under utilize as a narrative force (she’s always been active, but she’s also mostly symbolic, I think).
Back to the dialogue: I said okay, you disagree and all that. But why is the attempt that Zack and Co. did with Clark in MOS, why is that invalid? Isn’t the most morally straight character worthy of having morally complex stories where the choice to do good is difficult and makes it after long contemplation?
And they didn’t really have anything to say after that.
Hi Doc,
Thank you as always for such detailed podcasts. It is always sad waiting for that next episode. I was looking forward to that Josstice (Too much?) League episode but after you dropped the Rumble Road side minis, I have a feeling that will be one long wait.
Then I remembered you seeking a reason to talk about the movie again and I thought of something.
So, we know, and you also said something about it already, that there is a completely different movie underneath what we go.
There is but the way I see it there is at least three movies in there, if we go back further.
There is the movie WB wanted with the reshoots. There is the movie that was already written even as BvS was shooting that was two be Part 1 of 2. There is also the movie we expected and were promised with the trailers that was to be a stand alone after the 2 part idea was scrapped in reaction to the reception of BvS.
So, my challenge is that, how well can toy build a concept of these three movies in JL? At least the two that we did not get?
That can be something to chew on from last year’s JL.