Man of Steel answers insight commentary episode 28 suicide squad, contrail or I will ask the obvious question start asking questions and answers welcome to Man of Steel answers insight commentary on your DC see you apologist Dr. awkward I cover a mosaic of topics for fans who love discussing the Man of Steel and the DC cinematic universe together will endeavor to answer the questions criticisms and controversies raised by Man of Steel and those eagerly anticipating the DCC you this episode first look at the suicide squad and listener mailbag this podcast dives deep into the DCC you to answer the critics and the confused the show is not meant to convert anybody but the celebrate a film that will lead us into the DC cinematic universe reasonable minds will differ but this is a show for fans who love the DCC you and who love to chew their food somewhat pilot have a horse a mistress have home away the whole is ability so maybe Superman was forcibly most dangerous people on the planet is good is you think you can control people you are you and a is is crazy really really I don't think the suicide squad first look was meant to be examined under a microscope so I'm not intending to do a shot by shot analysis like I did with Batman be Superman were over a year out and we were treated to three whole minutes but I think was mostly meant to tease the tone and the confidence and the approach so far I'm really encouraged the look is cinematic in the tone still has way to it despite an eclectic cast of crazy characters the material still feels like it's being treated seriously and sincerely and that was my main reservation about suicide squad I'm always open to seeing you interpretations but pleasantly surprised to see that this is very much something that could take place in the world of Batman be Superman even if it has its own spin on style and even if the filmmakers are taking the film seriously the characters have an innate sense of levity to them which makes sense Superman a Batman take it personal when innocence are at risk but some like Lex Luther can revel in that situation likewise are suicide squad can quit when the bodies pile up in a way that euros generally can't or shouldn't unless living in a world without consequences there is more that's clever about the suicide squads place in the lineup that's another episode I mainly wanted to give my overall impressions but that said this would be my show if I can provide you with some sort of analysis and sometimes we get that by looking at the metrics if you break down the trailer by shots there are a little under 90 shots not counting the title card logos and things like that now this analysis isn't waited for screen time or impact are focused but here are the rough figures for your consideration Waller appears in eight shots and has about one third of the lines in this first look Harley appears and 23 shots not counting group shots and has about one fourth of the law exploit appears in 11 shots three with his daughter and gets two lines June appears in about six shots flag is featured in about four shots to with Floyd and one with June Diablo is featured in six shots with two of them being group shots and croc is featured in five shots three of those being group shots boomerang is featured in five shots with only one solo shot but he does get a line of dialogue seemingly about Harley katana has two shots by herself and shares one with boomerang and has some other group shots slipknot appears only once by himself Joker has six shots one shared with Harley one with Batman about three lines now again this film is more than a year out but that breakdown tends to affirm what we already knew about the relative interest and marketability of the characters and perhaps a glimpse into their relative importance in this insoluble film so the last time we really looked at suicide squad in episode 22 we went in order of weirdness and this time I think of them to go in the speculated order of importance with Joker and Waller in the mix if you've listened to this podcast for a while I think you know that I'm pretty ambivalent about things like final scores are ranks but obsessed with metrics and the reasons why as opposed to a final position so take this ranking in that spirit another time of day or slightly different analysis and I could easily be convinced convince myself to change the order and a heartbeat to number one on our list is slipknot and I'm putting them here as the most obscure character on the team who barely appears in this first look it easy to want to write him off as cannon fodder or someone who dies immediately many are pegging him as the person to demonstrate that kill condition on the squad often a bomb implanted in the brain or cuff over a limb however from the footage we know that slipknot makes it into the field so clearly Waller didn't make him into an example to prove the threat of the bomb personally I'm curious if slipknot is even a convict since we never see him incarcerated in fact I wonder if they're going to retire or modify the failsafe on the suicide squad don't quite know the rules or the tone of the DCC you going forwards but blowing up their heads might be a tad conspicuous and work against deniability maybe additionally if you're surrounded by soldiers the need for a failsafe might be a little less pressing especially if your cooperation can be assured by some other coercion or duress conversely if there still are bombs why would any of the convicts doubt Waller or require a test or demonstration they would already know that Waller has thrown away their whole so to speak that they were being treated with the full dignity of their civil rights so the fact that Waller would implant bombs into them would be completely plausible from their perspective so you wouldn't need slipknot to test that threat because Waller is really really persuasive anyways if there are still bombs at least we know slipknot makes it onto the streets next up is killer croc and he's important because his looks push the edge of reality and what you're willing to accept them leave if you look doesn't work then back and take you out of the film every time he's on screen the trailer do something pretty smart and that's to show you an attack on Arkham with half a dozen masked gunmen and in a weird way that sets up the norm for this world where at any moment you might run into somebody with an eyeball forehead or perhaps a goat's head and that sets you up to expect the weird and also sort of says see this is what a hollow wean costume looks like when you compared to croc we see croc completely restrained but also a brief shot of his lips being pulled back into a toothy snarl and it works it is definitely right up there on the edge stuff but it hasn't gone over it at least for me of course we don't see croc say or do anything really so he's on this list as slightly less important than our next person katana like croc katana doesn't get any lines but she ones up croc with two of her shots the first one where she throws boomerang up against the wall with her blade against his throat and the second one where mask lists sheet returns are katana to her sigh of a scabbard or sheath with a pained expression on her face so we know that her character is going to interact with the others we know that she has a temper and a limit or a button that boomerang can polish and we can see that she's going through something and that thing is going to get her to a moment so at least at this point she has more to do than croc there's also a brief shot of her filing out of the wreckage while drawing her sword showing that she's ready for action like slipknot she's never shown in incarceration and were never given clear indication that she's a prisoner which may ring true to her more heroic origins will talk more about it later but katana is a decidedly cultural character drawing from her Japanese heritage which plays well with the international flair of our next character who hails from down under the flash rogue boomerang is next and the only character who gets a line outside of the top four characters and the admiral who died Waller the added of the line suggests that he's in the same scene with Harley but their respective backdrops make that a little less clear and with this squad crazy one probably doesn't narrow it down all that much we seen that he's able to anger katana however boomerang is the only character in the entire first look doesn't give us a hint into his abilities with slipknot we get his grapple gun in his gear croc wears his abilities on his face katana carries one Diablo please with flames dead shot with guns and hardly demonstrates her agility Joker his ruthlessness and Waller her manipulation flag commands troops and enchantress summons to mind the occult but besides being scummy end kind of big we have no idea just from this first look why he belongs on the squad and which for me right now is just fine because I think there's a lot of cool things that we might see from his specialty John Courtney was born and raised in Sydney so it's nice to hear him speak closer to his native accent and boomerang has traditionally brought friction into the suicide squad a little grit in the gears which is critical because if and when they operate too much like a well oiled machine we sometimes forget that these are contexts speaking of which we don't see boomerang incarcerated either but it's a lot easier to imagine him in prison then say katana or slipknot with our next squad member we don't have to imagine for Diablo in this first look we get to see him incarcerated and we get to see a hint of those conflicting values with images of presumably his family and perhaps a prayer candle another cultural approach to a character we get the suggestion of his powers with the blowing out of the match and holding up his hands in a way that suggests the command over flame while being doused with water and then being flushed out of a tanker while Diablo doesn't get any lines I get the sense that he's going to be more important to the story than many might initially guess despite barely being on anyone's radar he's an interesting character because he plays strongly into themes that David air loves to deal with good and evil in gang life faith in the face of the horrors of combat in the comics Diablo spent a good amount of his arc tormented by his powers and his face considering them a penance and then sometime later a switch flipped he considered himself an instrument of retribution there are a lot of ways here can play with a character with those angles in his candidate but especially when the character is so obscure and in that sense can this to work with and while that seems to apply to many of the suicide squad as a whole it definitely applies to our next guy flag now honestly he doesn't really do anything interesting on his own but I sort of view all the soldiers is a proxy for flagon his command probably the most interesting thing he does in the trailer is in civilian garb and with more or longer hair he seems to share an intimate moment with June who's wearing professional clothing and a lanyard around her neck this seems to suggest that flying has a personal stake in this which goes beyond patriotism and that he had feelings for June presumably before the formation of the squad and her transformation into enchantress and before he shaved his hair so at this point we still have no idea what the true evil threat or villain of this bad guy ensemble film is for all we know flags personal history with June might add a dimension or layer if his mission is to terminate the enchantress but also if he has his own personal agenda to rescue June so although we don't really see flag to do anything his men have a presence and his ties to enchantress definitely raise his importance in this felt so speaking of enchantress for me enchantress was the biggest? And the mystery that I'm the most interested in she represents magic on a more tangible level than anything else in this world as I've suggested before I think suicide squad is going to deal with magic way more than you'd expect even Diablo's powers might be dismissed as the product of the meta-gene which he chooses to interpret through a spiritual lands but with enchantress it's hard to get away from the idea that there's magic in this world and that it's powerful and scary but not so powerful that magic isn't afraid of guns and perhaps why they disappeared into the shadows until Superman showed that the supernatural could be bold again besides the magic enchantress hasn't appeared in any of the set photos suggesting that she's not a part of the field team but perhaps an objective for the team to deal with more secure enchantress has also had so many variations in the comics so the guidance of whether going with her character isn't as clear as it is with say boomerang now based on comments from card they Levine it's apparent that they're going with the split personalities from the comics and I'm all on board for that since I've had an opportunity to see more of her acting certainly do Levine's popularity seems to be a draw at this moment in time she has nearly 16,000,000 Insta Graham followers and is exploding onto the scene with 10 of her 14 IMDb credits coming from the past two years I know that when she was first announced I wondered who she was and new her only as a DJ from grand theft auto and I struggled to find examples of her acting but now I feel like I see her everywhere and generally I'm impressed by what I'm seeing for such a new talent demonstrating natural acting ability I'm curious to see if they're going to use an American accent or she's got a stick their English accent maybe I'm only just taking notice now but she appears to be immensely popular and brand watch.com seems to credit the 2 million views suicide squad has over BBS in large part to Kara know whether true or not the character has substantial shots in this first look would probably get to see a glimpse of only three origins Harley dead shot and enchantress suggesting that their arcs are important to the film I'm doubtful will get origin stories for every character in the film so the fact that the even shot one for enchantress seems to elevate her importance every one of her shots seems to be filled with a story behind them from being in the cave and mesmerized by something to that disturbing image of her upset under a hand drawn upside down seven pointed star immersed in the dark liquid with reads on either side of her to her scene with flag and then that quickest glimpse of the terrifying enchantress in what seems to be an ordinary contemporary room as I said I wouldn't be surprised if much of the overall plot revolves around her which seems to contradict what many people are thinking about this next character the Joker an absolute Marquis character and the most iconic one in this entire film except for Batman yet despite his cultural impact I don't think the Joker is going to play as much into this story of the film in the way that I believe enchantress might I wondered Joker is going to be viewed mostly through the lens of Harley and mostly because you don't need a suicide squad and a platoon of soldiers a gunship and to show knocks just to take out the Joker in the Joker doesn't really account for a lot of the things that we've been seeing in the set photos nonetheless Joker get some significant storytelling shots a lot of time in this teaser and some big lines in the big finish between that and his stature as an icon I don't think I could put a many lower on this list and I also just realized that I didn't put Batman on this list but I guess I'd rank them around here as well for similar reasons a character that has less to do with the central story but is such an icon that their significance is boosted for it to Batman loses in screen time and connections to the Joker he makes up in relevance to the DCC you at large and acting as connective tissue to Bridget altogether Joker Harley dead shot and croc are all rogues from his gallery and katana often has ties putting Batman's presence on this film even if she was never in it these characters share nothing else likely may have all tangled with the bat at one time or another and I will just about lose my mind if we get the characters sitting around and trading short encounter stories and in oh mosh to that Batman TAS episode almost got them out she gets too bad harm is you always come in second house was ago and now I wise hold up in his quarry and knows it around he was getting closer and closer will have me again it is the any room was of the you I can almost imagine David Ayer spending hundreds of hours on casting preproduction costume makeup and R&D also he can include the line I threw a rock at him okay probably not but Affleck has been spotted on location out of costume so Bruce Wayne not just the Batman may have a role in suicide squad as well and with the Superman name dropped and Lex Luther rumored to be a presence in the film suicide squad is set to be squarely in the DCC you and to build out the world impressively this isn't a side note or a side story taking place in some far-off corner of the universe but a story that intersects with Gotham and midway the Batman the government the supernatural and DC's deep well of super villains waiting to be introduced in the moviegoing audience it doesn't mean that suicide squad is some tiny piece of a larger ongoing story necessarily but it does mean that it's making the world richer for each successive film to draw so in this world for example you feel the impact of the Joker even in Batman be Superman whether or not we see him or if the plots are tied together Joker Batman Gotham Luther Superman to the black zero event etc. are all part of the tapestry of this cinematic universe and I am rambling on where was I get Joker right let's talk about that look our first look at Joker is a blink and you'll miss it moment as he led through what looks like a drug bottling plant but in some of the shots you see some cylindrical objects on conveyor belts and some seemingly well armed guards so maybe this is a munitions factory and I'm good have to take it back the Joker can't bring down an aircraft I don't think so but some food for thought jokers in a black coat with a high collar and I definitely have to take back the idea that this Joker can get around in the mundane world without getting noticed that shock of neon green haired that ghastly pallor means that you scream run and hide or call the cops he is out of this world and he knows it as evidenced by the Joker mobile we can't make it out in the trailer but he does have custom Joker rims and has a gang that's willing to fight to the death for him he has a body that's covered in intricate tattoos and he has Harley at his side despite his looks this is a Joker who can make and execute a plan who has patients who can accrue wealth and reputation man and relationships and he is meant for the long haul he isn't the unchecked and unfettered embodiment of chaos like Nolan's Joker this Joker's tattoos are telling he has the patience to sit still the pain tolerance to suffer first statement and he very much wants to say something we get that sense from Batman be Superman with the message on the Robin suit and while this interpretation is definitely different it's something that's been dying to make it to film and arch nemesis with history the ability to go the distance with the Batman who might have been at this for 20 years most of the jokers we've met until now are just too self-destructive to undisciplined and chaotic candles the burn brightly at both ends to make it this far with a Batman that's got 50 cows on his car metal knuckles built into his gloves and who just might be prone to branding his quarry so it says something that this Joker seems to have gone the distance and he's left his mark on the Batman and his legacy with Harley so even without expressly spelling all this out I'm excited at the storytelling potential with the underlying history and lore between these two and man I keep getting derailed by the DCC you at large but this is a world I want to explore and unravel in my mind just keep going there but let's get back to this first look are most substantial look at this Joker is with him shirtless and wearing those purple sterol gloves and that color tends to be trademarked and is an indication that their nitrile and not lay text for those with allergies to latex Joker looks like he's prepared to break Dr. Harley Quinn Zell a quickly note that these scenes have a point of view sensibility to them meaning that Harley might be our point of view character literally in the scenes and figuratively throughout the story as a whole maybe probably not because were already privy to some private moments between other characters in this film I'm still uncertain about my feelings on the look it's not one that I ever would've imagined on my own and it's still very confronting but in the context of this first look with the grime and this common the grid and the graffiti Key fits he works he makes a certain kind a sense here I'm still genuinely disturbed looking at him and I can't discern if that's dislike or discomfort in terms of performance though I'm completely on board again totally taken by surprise nothing that I would've guessed but I'm really engaged by O's choices which have created this new thing his physical energy when he's rocking back and forth as he starts his lines and then a sudden stillness and then a soothing softness of his voice coupled by his psychotic and self satisfied smiling its complete and utter nightmare fuel that voice crawls under your skin and peels your eyelids off and you're forced to look into his unblinking blue eyes framed by eyeshadow and that horrifyingly accented mouth metal and lipstick bringing back that discomfort and unease of having braces in your mouth or getting tangled in somebody else's okay maybe that's just me but if you close your eyes and you imagine him I bet you can picture this Joker's face without much trouble at all he creates a strong impression with ledger and Nicholson the amount of makeup and prosthetics made jokers face more of a mask and in its own way up a little distance between us and his madness if we just take that mask off will be all right but here I feel he jokers naked brain is pressing right up against mine and I ate it I think like I said this Joker creeps me out and I think that's a good thing but I can't get my lizard brain to stop screaming kill it with fire a Being melodramatic but the point is I think they found in the active angle on Joker to make that clown that we've all taken for granted to the point of becoming the love then comfortable with truly terrifying weird and confronting the compelling in his own way and I'm excited to see how that pans out perhaps you're not as squeamish as me and a makes you want to live well he is a clown after all anyway as radical as this Joker is next on our list is somebody played quite conservatively Waller both in this first look and I suspect in the film Waller acts as a framing an expository device however despite traditionally playing this role in the comics and in the cartoons she's always been a compelling character because she's that stubborn consequentialist with a heart of gold Waller is the logical extension of somebody like Batman take into a bureaucratic extreme but he ends justify the means you in nearly every version or variant there's that moment where she draws the line reminds us that she isn't just driven by sadism but always for the greater good and that spark of humanity makes her somebody that we love to hate like Batman she's somebody that's agreed to sacrifice some of her own humanity in order to tech humanity Waller is somebody that were so frustrated by because most times she's probably right even when our heroes are telling us she's wrong it's crazy that the government official is that interesting but it speaks to how well the character has been handled and the increasing role of government in superhero comics a well-meaning and necessary force but with a cynical and dark underbelly for all those good intentions gone awry Viola Davis seems to be playing it pitch perfect someone who can hold her own with an admiral and enjoy a stake in a ritzy restaurant while observing European dedicate but who can also roll up your sleeves and go into the whole that she threw away and then some of the most dangerous criminals on earth the worst of the worst as she says to her purposes Waller has the most lines in this first look and honestly I think I could do an entire podcast just breaking down her lines but since were so far out I think which is can a cover the highlights Waller has a sense of theater and hyperbole since she calls her task force the worse the worst of the most dangerous people on the planet but that's her style it's like saying she threw away the whole she's not a dry and boring robotic administrator she relishes what she's doing she takes pride in it and she enjoys communicating the spirit of what she's doing over accuracy simply put she's got an attitude and it's awesome now with respect to Superman acting as a beacon we mentioned above that the occult is powerful fears men with guns and why not being burned at the stake seem to be a real fear of consequence for people in different periods past and not too far removed from the lynch mob or the firing squad today's urban riots might replace village folk with pitchforks and torches is what the strange and the fringe fear about the masses but Superman's public debut proves that a certain amount of cohabitation is possible as much as Superman brings onto the dawn of the justice league that same rationale might cause the creeping of the super villain out of up security now Waller speculating so where do speculating on top somehow I think the connection between killer croc and Superman is probably tenuous but the other thing that that line shows is that the supernatural in the world of the weird preexisted Superman there are abilities and things beyond kryptonian's and that Waller has seen these things keeping with the tradition of her being well-connected and informed often for example knowing Batman secret identity without him disclosing it to her all of this is encouraging because it makes it less likely that the filmmakers will have to compromise on character linking their origins or connecting everything to say kryptonian's in a world where Waller has seen these things before Superman ever came onto the scene it's likely permissible to have a God is formed of clay I have a bunch of comments on the deniability aspect a thing of the say that for future episodes again where over a year out people know one last thing I'll note is that Waller explains or controlled by talking about her own and how it that it's what she does rather than citing some sort of technological mechanism and again this plays into her stylized exaggerated way of speaking is not mutually exclusive that getting people to act against their own self interest may be her job but it's also true that she's relying on a technological mechanism but it does perhaps plaintiff the theory that there are no bombs in the head this time around and if you want to be really pedantic about it acting because there is a bomb inside your head well that's acting in your self interest is in it will Waller might be getting their beady and some other way which leads us to our next character dead shot I mentioned that out of the 11 shots containing Floyd three of them were with his daughter and that seems to be a pretty obvious source of leverage for Waller and the characterization for dead shot in the film are first glimpse of dead shot shows that he's clearly incarcerated of working out some of his frustrations on a makeshift heavy back is just a short shot but you can pull from it the idea that Floyd is clever and that he has lateral thinking skills to MacGyver a heavy bag out of his mattress it shows that he prioritizes fighting fitness over comfort he'd rather have a mattress in tatters so that he can train and focus his frustrations in his fury and this shot of controlled fury stands in stark contrast to Harleys aerial ballet and Diablos trancelike state Floyd seems to be the man with his eyes open who sees the situation for what it is he dubs the team he recognizes that their patsies and he urges them to save the world in the comics dead shot is that the fact of field commander of the suicide squad and we can't get that feeling hereto and we get the feeling that he is a competent and experienced professional a soldier on the wrong side of the law perhaps the hitman with a heart of gold is a bit played in cinema right now but it's authentic to the comics and it plays to Will Smith's talents for me will Smith doesn't quite disappear into the role yet but I think some of that is how quick be his lines were Smith has been twice nominated for Academy Awards and he has the potential to anchor this I don't think we seen enough to judge yet there's a great potential for great performance in the comics Floyd has a certain level of a reference and fatalism that makes him darkly humorous it's like I don't know asking the surgeon to perform open heart surgery with a rubber chicken and in that surgeon screaming bloody murder at what he's given and yet he proceeds to complete the surgery successfully anyways something like that and so far we seem to be getting a pretty reserved and Stoic take on dead shot but that's two lines for a film that's a year out with plenty of opportunities to show more character between now and then will Smith can be incredibly charismatic and they might be holding that back a little right now so that the film doesn't get pigeonholed prematurely into one of his earlier blockbuster effort so despite how much of dead shot we see I think his character is still very much under wraps now one character with no shortage of character in this first look is our final and perhaps the most important character Harley Quinn I don't know if it's a reflection of the film of the marketing but this was a very heavy Harley first look given the 11 characters that we've looked at Harley got about one fourth of the shots in one fourth of the spoken lines even with all the controversy and questions surrounding let us Joker Robbie as Harley seem to be something nearly universally praised so I can see this first look wanting to lean on something safe and fan pleasing but even then showing this much of Harley would be a risk if it didn't deliver the Internet might've revolted if Harley didn't come across that I think most would agree that they've succeeded it's interesting that even without any of the traditional costume trappings we get all of Harley in our very first image acrobatic graceful beautiful but also crazy and dangerous an aerial ballet suspended by a straitjacket from prison bars surrounded by barbed wire and armed guards it's something we've never seen before but yet so Harley Quinn we get a sense of how dangerous Harley is based on how she secured compared to dead shot and Diablo and Harley is the first and only squad member to interact with Waller in this first look and she asked something that is both mad and insightful argue the devil likely a question that Waller tries not to ask herself and perhaps a hint that Harleys talents as a psychoanalyst are still on deck to be tapped now rather than a breakdown of her many appearances in this trailer all of the essays that it works and I'm sold I never doubted Margot Robbie's acting ability on whether she could bring the look to life my main question surrounding Harley was believing that she had a place on the squad and on the front lines and even in this first look they've successfully shown how dangerous and mad she can be a character with that kind of athleticism and acrobatics seemingly taking on multiple guards can hang with the suicide squad beyond just any Intel she might have we get all sorts of glimpses and her crazy from her choice of heels to playfully pretending a skull crushing baseball bat is a shotgun licking a prison bar laughing madly to herself gleeful at Batman on the top of their ride and smashing her head into bars and more she also has briefed ditzy airhead moments which maker the source of much of the humor in the levity in this teaser from a storytelling perspective it looks like were going to get her origin and adventure with the Joker and some of her incarceration before joining the suicide squad in the recent comics and cartoons high least ties to the jokers have perhaps become slightly more ambivalent and allowed her to stand on her own as a character and explore relationships and codependency's friendships and recreational romps with other characters like poison ivy dead shot shazam power girl and more think my aversion for clowns might be why it was never a Harley Quinn fanatic but I appreciate what she means to other people and I enjoy most Harley stories that I've read I admire what she represents to the Canon of comics that it needs to be ever-changing of all thing in open to new ideas and characters if we insist that Joker is a sexual we never get Harley and if we insist that Harley is inexorably bound to Joker we never get her expanded adventures that levity and irreverent nature of Harley Quinn also allowed her to break the fourth wall and enjoy comical holiday specials which were always a highlight and a treat since DC retired the normal holiday specials some always thankful and appreciative that her character let's those still be made aside from the array of talent in offbeat characters I'm really excited about the diversity of this cast got multiple cultural backgrounds ethnicities and attitudes you got serious girl power with Waller running the show Harley a shining star and the enchantress set to steal the spotlight and you got a great warrior theme going with a paramilitary operation with a covert government squad supported by soldiers trained to do their job in the larger scheme of the DC EU it serves as a strategic segue from the world's finest wonder woman the strong female characters of the suicide squad take some of the weight of the Diana's shoulders saving her from having to be all things to all women and a perfect feminist ideal with variations on that theme already proceeding her in suicide squad and the insight gleaned from suicide squads modern warfare may make wonder woman's warrior aspects a less conspicuous against Superman and Batman after watching suicide squad and things so evil and supernatural that you need to send the squad after that evil you may well be very happy that there's a wonder woman in that world to slay those kinds of monsters suicide squad is something surprising and it doesn't carry the baggage with expectation of any of the justice league members and while most of the characters have been around since the 80s or so they've all been subject to enough reinvention that having an open mind about each new take is par for the course and so the audiences open to being surprised and these characters can genuinely died to convey the costs and consequences of this universe to give it a poignancy perhaps not immediately available to many members of the league it's counterprogramming that still builds up the Brant I've always been a fan of titles like Simone secret six the suicide squad and Demon nights there's something delightful about how they're still sincerely wicked but you grow to root for them especially when every core villain of the 90s had a habit of becoming a hero than a magneto juggernaut Emma Frost taskmaster Catwoman in dead pool I get that they're cool and that we want to redeem our favorites but I enjoyed the bad guys being bad being themselves even if good came out of it rather than being reformed into just another hero I think suicide squad is going to give us balance is going to be redemption for those with the heart of hero under it all but were still do get bad guys villains and everything in between part of the reason that I keep raising the lack of bombs this time around perhaps because I think the immensely popular characters like Harley might not have their fates bound to the squad and find their way to freedom and potential future spinoffs by the end of the film we something like suicide squad your villains get to be villains and suddenly you get the impression that the DC EU is teaming with them perhaps letting you get away without having to explain every villain sometimes a bad guy can just be a bad guy without an elaborate sympathetic super villain origin and it makes sense because the suicide squad will have a ready cemented the idea that these people are out there for the hero's the fight and that that bigger and richer universe raises the stature of all heroes and he gives the filmmakers a more interesting sandbox the plan and is eventually what do give us a Superman sequel like we've never seen before imagine a Superman film steeped in an active living breathing teaming DC universe with all the heroes and villains galore where he stands as the first of the greatest of them all bright and strong even in that world that the cinematic Superman but want to live to see different from all the previous takes where he stands as this lonely anomaly the only spark of magic or fantasy and otherwise mundane world's imagine a movie where you have the justice league wonder woman the flash Green Lantern and Batman but this is a job for Superman I'm totally okay with them biding their time and building the DC EU to that point to tell that story because if we jump into a Superman sequel to soon all were getting is those Superman films of the past or that sort of disconnected Marvel flavored standalone films that perhaps don't quite appreciate how much they all impact the world how Against of rambling I'm just so excited about the potential these films there's so much more to say about suicide squad but I promised a dual mailbag so let's try to go through as many these questions I can as usual the mailbag is not heavily produce so I apologize in advance for tangents and editorializing and rambling which is sure to follow a sincere thanks for your patience on some of these questions which a been asked long time ago okay first up we have longtime listener Maggie who was written in questions for literally every episode thank you even if I don't tackle them all in the mailbag they definitely provoke thought and inspire some of the segments the podcast blog so Maggie asks basically given how long Batman holds a grudge how can these two buried yaks that's not right it's asked to grind and bury the hatchet right reside in say of bury the beef okay nevermind of basic question on the Internet perhaps we encounter more people who forget to show each other grace for some it seems more important to stick to their position rather than get along forgivable move on and sometimes you see the same handful of people debate the exact same issue endlessly and some kind a Sisyphean torment loop however in the real world people have misunderstandings and clear them up with a have conflicts and they resolve them and throughout history many one time enemies become longtime allies and this pattern is reflected in our Lauren are pop-culture him when the beast man in key do is sent to kill that Superman Gilgamesh the two battled fiercely but then it became like brothers in the journey to the West the monkey King or some: gathers his companions the battle both King author and Robin Hood routinely increase the ranks of the Roundtable in their Merry men respectively through competition and contacts with their rivals who then became their loyal allies we got the US and Britain Shield and link in foreman Ali warding Gotti and my favorite Apollo in Rocky more recently the fast and the furious Brian and Dominic right and of course just about every time superheroes encountered each other for the first time in the comics right even had been in the recent avengers movie so all I'm saying is that there is a long tradition of squashing beef after a battle and I don't see why Batman can't partake in that we'll have the vague contours of their conflicts so we don't a how it can be resolved just yet but I'm pulling for wonder woman to be part of that peacemaking process so that that aspect for characters reflected in the film as well we know all of this is for the justice league so Batman and Superman are going to have to get along police well enough to work together on the league even if they are the best of friends by the end of Batman be Superman between wonder woman the third act threat the machinations of loose or I think this could be more than enough there to justify them going from combat tends to comrades and another observation which might predispose the Senate Jor-El to respect and admire Batman is the similarity between Jor-El and Batman think about it for a second Jor-El is this swashbuckling warrior genius from a family of press stage who commits a secret antisocial taboo while unafraid to be banded outlaw his martial skills defy convention his preparations are extensive and extreme and viewed by others as paranoid but ultimately proven correct he has all the best tack he has tragically lost his family and by the time Clark encounters him there's a certain cold stoicism to his exterior but his actions are of a passionate man now I don't think the parallels in a be that stark in the film but there's an underlying rationale for Superman to want to draw from Batman's experience and to be his ally while next up I got an email from cruise wanting to know if I would like to see a live-action adaptation of kingdom come and I guess it is on the degree of adaptation to the borrows the themes and imagery and probably okay with that but I don't think we need that particular story in the DC EU at this time kingdom come was very much a commentary and a critique of the 90s eras of comics and that message isn't quite as clear today nearly 30 years after the fact the character of God was sort of a send up of cable and shatter star mashed up together however today characters like cable and dead pool are revered as part of the tapestry of comics history if you can find a more salient message that doesn't become old guys getting angry at new things it might be more for a general audience and don't get me wrong I love kingdom come and I cherish my signed absolute edition but I think the layers in the meaning of the story very specific to its time the main thing I'd like out of something like kingdom come is that sincerely epic and operatic scope where you have that's or lived in saturated with superheroes universe being taken seriously with gravity and with consequences the's heroes were aging of generations were springing up and things were taken to their logical conclusion rather than being swept under the rug or reset to some status quo we've already discussed earlier this episode how the DC EU can bring us a totally different take on Superman sequel and that's what I want out of it that same kind of feel that you get from reading kingdom come or any other epic DC event book where it's overflowing with characters in history that you can't possibly know all at once that make you feel like there's this whole hidden world to dive into to explore and learn about and immerse yourself into it's an exciting kind of disorientation that draws you into those worlds like when you land in the new city for the first time I didn't make the comparisons earlier but basically I'd love if the DC EU sort of had the feeling of Star Wars where not everything is explained but so much crazy stuff just crosses your path a just know that there's a whole story there even if it is an on-screen Man of Steel told Lee captured that with krypton and many of the supporting cast that unspoken and unseen stories for the Kents Lois Parry and so on but with all of that turned up to 11 using DC's rich more that's the sensation I get when I'm watching watchmen or picking up those epic DC event books when is more history than you'd ever have time to know I like that sense and it sounds like what they want for the DC you to have this ancient and rich depth to it Chris also asked if I think Superman and wonder woman are going to fight and I'm on the fence on one hand I feel like if they don't it's going to be a perpetual question it seems really hard to pass up that opportunity but on the other hand I think the third act threat might satiate those kinds of questions and urges but I'm pretty sure wonder woman is going to command the respect of Superman and Batman how leave it at that subpoena away wants to know the death toll in metropolis and I don't think we have any hard figures yet we have some estimates of questionable veracity an unknown calculation we do get some more concrete clues through the Wayne tower article in the BBS, contrail or I think this might be something that we either learn later on which benefits from a degree of ambiguity at a certain point our ability to conceive of war conceptualize tragedy is numbed by numbers we might recognize the horror of the family of six dying compared to an individual staff but 7000 dying instead of 6000 at that point the storytelling is more important than the stats so I hope that's where the film stays focused that said listener Phil has provided analysis for the damage in the comments on the blog you should check that out at Sam wants to know why Superman was hovering over the rescue reason the trailer not just brushing into rescue them which is a great question and I think the real reason is that as part of the montage and were not can a see the mechanics of every rescue but is apologetics I think that Superman is assessing the situation basically how do you save all those people if we assume the same limitation on his powers like can't travel at superspeed with people in his arms but from suffering or that he can only carry so many people to safety at a time is not necessarily an easy thing to triage could you transport first and how do you feel if they get caught up while you're transporting somebody else so there's not a montage the way I'd love Superman to solve this is to change the course of a mighty river in reference to the adventures of Superman while he might not Messerli have the tools to evacuate an entire neighborhood of people on their roofs we've seen the extent shatter mountaintops and that might be useful in diverging a flood maybe these are the scenes that the general audiences really need to connect with the image of Superman saving people in a looks like really get him in a film that takes nothing for granted were going to see why metropolis considers Superman their Savior and build monuments to him or you see why people would travel all the way to Washington just a hold up a sign in support why people paint his symbol in the hopes of rescue while people you're in to touch him and how even Alfred can recognize he's not the enemy and why Lois would want to live with him and love him but were also courtesy Batman's concerns and if Batman is played the villain a bit I think that's a smart play because his mythos can take it sort of how he fits into the league he's the one that thinks about these things and who crosses the line for what he perceives to be the good of all when Superman takes on the league and conquers the planet in King of the world it's a little bit of an embarrassing footnote and we try to forget the Donna Troy dies in that episode it would Batman's contingencies take down the league is heralded again and again is an achievement were willing to forgive Batman being the bag I'm more and all indications are that the filmmakers understand that I think Batman's can have his reasons and they're going to be understandable but I think it's also obvious that he's on the side of the debate involves destroying one third of the Trinity and that the title says the heart of justice so cooperation ultimately prevails we mentioned kingdom come before we mentioned Star Wars we mentioned Man of Steel and generally my attitude is that we can have all this conflict turmoil in trouble as long as you have hope in the end and I think that something that all those stories share and comment in which lets them pushed to the edge because we know in hand it doesn't end with Batman executing Superman for with Superman is a tyrant the hope is right there in the title to let us enjoy for the stories, take us and incidentally there's a certain amount of research which indicates that contrary to the connotation of the term spoilers actually increase our enjoyment of certain fiction under the right circumstances which partially accounts for how much as revealed in advertising probably do that research on your own think was re-raised in a recent verge ESP episode but that research has been widely reported for about the past five years even so I always struggle between wanting to know more or not and I think there's something to a healthy desire to delay gratification but I don't really take a position on it right now okay speaking of trying to know more of Godzilla L is trying to pinpoint when the Superman terror those doors off of Batman's car and obviously we don't know but my guess is that that is their first face-to-face meeting last episode I think I naturally approach the trailer with a Superman heavy emphasis but remember that Batman has his point of view to me know that Bruce is witness to what kryptonian's can do and that that makes an indelible impression on him however I don't think he sits there just bearing a grudge against Superman but that specific incident it just doesn't make sense for him to twiddle his thumbs while statues are built in Superman's honor leaving his tower on avenged that's why did the position that Bruce is concerned about what Superman could do not what he did do I imagine the Batman does prepare some contingencies the has to be some inciting incident which triggers Batman to have the crisis of conscience which crosses and over from reactive to judge jury and executioner so my read of that scene is that it's after the respective views are expressed and Batman's action sequence at Gotham gas draws Superman out that scene so they have this encounter is something about this encounter and some later inciting incident galvanizes Batman to action and the decision to go into a preemptive war and that's when Alfred perhaps helping to weld the doors back under the Batmobile tries to dissuade Bruce maybe I don't know I imagine Batman's arc is something like this he dealt with the weird before in this world characters like the suicide squad you consider that Batman the successor to all the Batman that we've already seen on film however that teaming DC universe that we talked about above with Superman that's what this Batman is turning the corner on is the first time that Batman is going to be entering that world turning the corner and embodying that sort of Grant Morrison Batman or perhaps the justice league Batman was able to deal with these threats on this scale but it's a process so the arc for Batman in this film is to take him from being that street-level vigilante to superhero Batman be Superman is the first time that he's personally encountered power on this scale when he sees that tower fall internally he's already accepted responsibility for taking on the kryptonian's he's not waiting for or expecting Superman to stop sod and he's not waiting for or expecting the government to stop sod either Batman was that kind of person to rely on the government he would have spent his career trying to clean up Gotham he would've left it to the government think of it this way there have always been threats that are bigger than Batman war poverty hunger and natural disasters but he always focused on Gotham's war on crime until this turning point when mentally he said it's my job to take those kryptonian's out that's the moment when Batman steps beyond being a vigilante detective and into the realm of superhero so that means arc continues through the upgrades in the preparations to justify and explain how mortal man can participate with the league and we get to see his research his tenacity his upgrades after were given a reason for him to go after Superman specifically I think that's it was pretty well into Jason's question Jason asks about Affleck and John's writing Batman and personally a little conflicted about John's who has simultaneously written some of my favorite comics ever as well as some of my most upsetting comics ever so his attachment isn't something that I can give an unqualified seal of approval to yet you can't help but be excited because these two are complete comic book nerds Affleck completely adores the character and John's has a huge respect for Batman tempered by 18 see the rest of the DC universe elevated to Batman stature in popular culture this tagteam has incredible writing potential I think Terrio is also incredible writer but my understanding is that he comes the comics as an outsider something of an anthropological historian as an obsessive-compulsive researcher which is what you want for this sort of semi-skeptical Man of Steel approach which views these mythologies with the degree of objectivity and distance so that everyone can engage and not just the comic diehards but Batman doesn't need that kind of approach and I say this little glibly but even the people who don't like Batman like Batman which is part of the reason why I said earlier that he can be played the villain somewhat and be forgiven for it so Affleck and John's can go full nerd and Affleck and John's at their best is something potentially historic mean Affleck is literally an Academy award-winning screenplay writer and John's is DC's chief creative officer for reason all Affleck has proven that he can pull off that triple threat of writing acting and directing all at once visual effects may still be needed to them however it's something that he got to sit in and learn from one of the best directors in that respect Snyder who has an incredible grasp of the marriage between film and visual effects and of course he can also lean on his second unit directors to execute that kind of stuff down some and suggested that Affleck avoid visual effects in order to play to his strengths and I am okay with that so long as he's following his passion and his music but my personal preference is for Batman to step into the embrace wholeheartedly that world of the superhero if the entire universe has turned his corner after Superman wonder woman and the league let's see of Batman who is a superhero but without the Of Batman and Robin I know a lot of people want to revisit that loan vigilante perhaps with an active slant but I think a serious superhero is a slightly newer interpretation and something that we've yet to see anything that links up nice to Leon's question Lee wants to know if the characters are open to interpretation I'm sure that question was rhetorical of course they are however it never has my belief in that been so reinforced than in these past two weeks in absorbing all these interviews from the death of Superman lives what happened of the extras that came with justice league gods and monsters and listen to Dan Jurgens on we talk comics in all those interviews hearing from Kevin Smith ramp Morrison Bruce Tim Geoff Johns Helen Burnett and Dan Jurgens all repeating that same idea again and again on how mythology benefits from and is honored by varying interpretations was amazing sorry I'm could thoroughly hijacked Leon's question which seems more about confronting the close minded adjusts so that I can praise these things that I've been enjoying recently Dan Jurgens weighed in on Superman killing in the comics and then explain why Man of Steel handled it a little bit better I just talked about Geoff Johns and one of the things that was really encouraging about the gods and monsters features was held Tim Burnett found themselves slightly stumped with a story structure but then they invited John's to look it over and they say that he strained it out for them in a way that clicked gods and monsters also included this great featurette on the imaginary stories and else worlds which really appreciates their history and their contribution to the larger mythos these alternate realities of these else worlds or not just in the comic books you know were seeing it in the movies the Christopher Nolan trilogy of films is a Batman else worlds the Arkham games is an else worlds small bill is its own universe it's got green arrow characters and it is not the same green arrow that's an arrow comics which are based on TV show or in the green arrow comics in the DC universe are all different versions of the same kind of characters and ill have subtle little difference is that each reader can pick and choose which one is their favorite so it's really need we get to explore those different things and I don't know whether people are getting a little more of there's all these different versions of the same thing somebody likes the small bill comic you shouldn't for something like the regular Superman continuity comics this is about choices and places for people to get the version of the characters that we do the way they like it the best and I think the readers are sophisticated enough to tell the difference again find their flavor that's what you guys must is another flavor try: the DC universe is a call that else worlds imaginary stories but the truth is because of the multi-verse existence of August her low world everyone is actually a surprisingly okay so I'm totally biased know I'd by these Blu-rays just for their commentary tracks but I enjoyed gods and monsters and doubly so under an else worlds lens it has that feeling that I keep talking about of the larger universe with more stories to uncover and that's that theme that we keep talking about through this episode I'm looking force to seeing if he keeps going forward it doesn't hurt the Tim made several comments what could be applied and defenses for Man of Steel pretty easily we want access of realism Wasn't just to be shocking and it wasn't just to make it all seem more adult or whatever that means is probably more realistic view of what situation would be if the actual existence of her as me if I had to his job is basically supercop is hot as honestly as a person about to be killed by criminal the cop has his weapon Al it is at the right use lethal force that he has the obligation to use lethal force to stop the back I never showed up and light weight 1930s he had a gun is you got an you is panel of him saying calming our own kill you think quickly you know in the mildly to to cite check in and before you know he was basically that even the dark avenger of evil anymore he wishes, Superman also is really really violent misery so this code against killing it totally made sense in 1940s context when you're deliberately aiming those comics and kids but in the 21st century makes him a setting more uninhibited every other aspect of comics as kind of grown up the treat every thing else with certain amount of the autonomous so have this you know 70-year-old Cody is unknown guy wearing long underwear Ever tell anybody it's the same for the death of Superman lives what happened even if it wasn't necessarily the Superman movie that you wanted to see you can understand why they wanted to push the envelope in certain places and get insight into larger Superman mythos and you get to hear master storyteller Kevin Smith as well as Grant Morrison knelt Morrison isn't really a fan of Man of Steel but he acts like the model the center by recognizing the intentions of the filmmakers rather than just dismissing them as something that he dislikes is able to take a step back and then to recognize the story of superheroes in this moment and analyze it from that perspective and perhaps maybe elsewhere hell be less generous but in that interview his insights are really interesting all in all and altogether they were a crash course in keeping your mind open so you can really enjoy more of what's out there of course without going anywhere that deep the death the Superman lives what happens is a cautionary tale and it provides insight into how the process is different or not today I really encourage you guys pick them up at the sport these films and by the same token if you're enjoying exclusive photos and articles from the press try to support that magazine and pick it up I know in an era of free information we take our ability to see exclusive content almost for granted but it out to show your appreciation if you enjoyed it by getting a legit copies that they can keep bringing us these shots these interviews and insights and of course I'm talking about the Empire magazine feature on Batman be Superman which gives up with Laura of new images and details to talk about actually I'm so short on time I think a half to save that for what have more time to ruminate on and and I only got my copy this morning but it seemed like everything of substance has already been widely reported but the looking over again in know will come back to it Jan asks about Chris Pine I know that has a new listeners so my general rule is that I don't talk about casting into we have solid confirmation either from a press release from the lips of those involved it's just an arbitrary line that I drew to limit when I have to talk about mean imagine if I discussed candidates like when there were half a dozen actors up for Spiderman to be talking that each one for about five minutes meaning half an hour down the drain especially if none of them got it sorted rather talk about things are slightly more concrete or that I find interesting when we just fast attack these last few questions before have to run Jonathan is wondering about the Robin rumors and Safari John this falls into my rule above will talk about it if and when the casting is more concrete but put a little more meat on this bone a let's ask whether work and have a Robin scene in the film and I think I do say may be leaning towards yes look you can have that things sitting in the movie and Bruce looking at it and the camera cutting close up to it and leave that unexplained for a general audience now for us the comic book fans you can say no more them will bring all that history and that meaning into that shot and that's all you need but for everyone else you're asking them to start whispering during the movie and to ask you to explain it this isn't an Easter egg like a Wayne are Luther logo and it isn't self-explanatory like Superman statue we don't necessarily need the story or the origin of the statue because we know why people raise statues and we know why people to file them but we don't know why somebody would present a defiled costume in their Batcave now how that answered might mean seeing Robin but it could also be as simple as a line like in honor of my fallen partner or maybe have Barbara Gordon asking do you still have that morbid thing in your cave now while the latter doesn't explicitly explain the costume it becomes a memorial in the mind of somebody who didn't know what it was but maybe it's just me but I think that for this film less is more with Robin but will see Nate is asking if I'm backing DC EU over DCC you for now I'm just doing both until we get a more explicit use of the DC EU from Warner Bros. I suspect will ultimately be shifting over to that but I'm not totally jumping ship yet incidentally a shout out to the sub Reddit DC_cinematic if you are a fan of this stuff they've got a great community and moderation team you should subscribe today and I definitely appreciate their support of Man of Steel answers insight commentary I know a lot of you have said you discover the site through DC cinematic so a big thanks to them may have so much more to talk about but too little time I literally have to run I literally have to run some of the cut it off here okay I think I've rambled on long enough here some shows I suggest you check out if you want to extend your enjoyment of the Superman mythos got it together from the far reaches of beings that are assembled and that's what got dedicated to the bust greatest superhero is safe to Superman like featuring Superman: the DC comics crisis Superman podcast is Superman this you will podcast is Superman forever and about the you you you you are you will podcast KL from Superman homepage.com is John Wilson really are leaving my present bride your retailer Michael they start to Sam result is the original Mario is given by an highlighted I gave Younis and how has Gotti they because that what thanks so much soliciting I just love discussing the stuff and if you been sticking with me hopefully you do to I'm genuinely grateful for each and every listener and hope you'll join us Man of Steel answers.com that way if you got questions you want answered or insights that you want to share commentary to make you can post in the comments for all your like-minded apologist to see or you can email me at mosaic@ManofSteelofSteelanswers.com if you like what you heard please review the show on iTunes or stitcher and subscribed this is Dr. awkward your DC cinematic universe apologist signing off CNX time that answers will I all the time I have all the will and that answers